Discussion:
THE INCOMPLETE KORAN, and THE UNTRUSTWORTHY MUHAMMAD.
(demasiado antiguo para responder)
GREGG
2005-08-06 03:55:20 UTC
Permalink
The Incomplete Koran, and untrustworthy Muhammad

1. The Koran is incomplete
2. Muhammad is not trustworthy
3. Satan
4. Conclusion

Incomplete Koran

The Koran was revealed to Muhammad by his death in 632. He transmitted
it to his following who compiled it during the decades after his
death, and varied compilations were completed in the mid 650s. There
were multiple compilations at the time, each using different material
based on the recitations of different caliphs. This variation caused
concern for Muslim scholars at the time. 'We thus face serious
contradictions in our source material regarding two issues: who
collected the Koran, and what it was collected from. In historical
terms, the differences between the rival accounts are not trivial'. In
the tenth century there were between 7 and 14 major different versions
of the Koran available.

* * * Ref: "The Koran: A Very Short Introduction" (Paperback)* * *
ISBN: 0192853449

Upon the compilation of the version we have today there were doubts
and the writing of Muslim scholars expressed it: That some of the text
may have been missed. This was why the compilations were completed in
the first place, because those who Muhammad had instructed the words
of the angel Gabriel to were becoming old. Early Muslim sources state
'[A Koran compiler's] Koran was incomplete, perhaps dramatically so.
'Let none of you say', averred the pious son of Caliph Umar, 'that he
has the whole Koran in his possession. How does he know what the whole
of it is? Much of the Koran has gone', and early compilers also
despaired 'of the sharp divergences in Koranic recitation that had
appeared among the Muslims - just had been the case, he warned, among
the Jews and Christians before them.

The Koran is incomplete... there are rules, guidelines and comments by
God that we no longer possess. The Koran is not compiled in order; the
patchwork canonization period was not capable of being done
chronologically. We do not know what order the texts were supposed to
be in. The missing text may contain really quite important rules and
texts! For example, the important rule "Muslims must cut their beard,
for health and hygiene purposes, once a month or once a week if they
work in the kitchens" may have been missed out! We do not know what is
missing... it really could be anything.

Muhammad not trustworthy

At one point Muhammad and his kin were opposed by the polytheists
around them. In particular, they were oppressed by the followers of 3
pagan gods in Mecca. When defeated, surrounded and under siege,
Muhammad 'seems to have even compromised his monotheism, at first, to
make peace with the Meccans', and suddenly recalled some text that
stated that the three pagan gods were valid intercessors [Q53:19-20],
after all! Lucky for Muhammad he remembered this important fact!
However, when Muhammad had a powerful army and his exiled followers
returned, he recited a further passage... saying that it was an error,
the three pagan gods were not valid! How could this be? There are two
possibilities, the first of which I accept and the second that Islam
has accepted traditionally.

Realistically

... it can be seen that Muhammad was defeated and gave in to pressure
from his enemies. He compromised truth, God's eternal word, for
material benefits: To stay alive. This is the truth of the matter. If
Muhammad can do this here, he could have done it with any part of the
Koran. We do not know which parts of the text were due to Muhammad's
materialism and selfishness and which parts he honestly thought were
the words of Gabriel. Like the Christian scriptures, we are left only
with Human text, not godly text.

The Satanic Versus

However Islamic tradition has it that these versus were not the result
of Muhammad's insincerity. They were versus that were sneaked into the
Koran by Satan. At an emotional moment Satan tricked Muhammad into
thinking that these versus were genuine, and it was only later that
"God annuls what Satan casts" (Q22:52).

* * * Ref: "Why I Am Not a Muslim", by Ibn Warraq (Paperback)* * *
ISBN: 1591020115

"Muslims have always been uncomfortable with this story, unwilling to
believe that the Prophet could have made such a concession to
idolatry. [...] It seems unthinkable that such a story could have been
invented by a devout Muslim such as al-Tabari [...]. Besides, it
explains the fact why those Muslims who had fled to Abyssinia
returned: they had heard that the Meccans had converted. It seems
apparent that this was no sudden lapse on the part of Muhammad, but
had been carefully calculated to win the support of the Meccans. It
also casts serious doubts on Muhammad's sincerity: Even if Satan had
really put the words in his mouth, what faith can we put in a man so
easily led astray by Satan? Why did God let it happen? How do we know
there are no other passages where Muhammad has not been led astray?"
"Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq p102
Which leaves us with some very interesting problems!
Because if Satan can inspire versus we do not know which ones are
valid and which ones are not. For all intents and purposes, the faked
ones were real from the time Satan slipped them in until the time God
annulled them. A period of some years! What further versus is God to
cancel? What other versus were inspired by Satan? We do not know... as
a result the Koran cannot be trusted!

The Koran cannot be trusted!!!

If Muhammad falsified the words of Gabrielle to save his own neck then
we cannot trust Muhammad... yet if it was Satan who inspired the
versus, we cannot trust the Koran! Adding to this the fact that we
know there is text missing from the Koran... what are we left with?
Instead of inspired holy scripture, it sounds more like the insincere
legacy of Muhammad, or the mixed opinions of God and Satan! Some
scripture is not only missing, or wrong, but designed to deceive: In
all cases, the book is not the pure word of God, and is not a suitable
text for Muslims to know the will of God.

Furthermore...even the Hadith texts are broken !!!

Islam does not only rely on canonical texts. The Hadith sayings are
given religious authority and attributed to Muhammed:


"Modern Western scholarship, however, examining critically the
earliest surviving documents, has cast a much more fundamental doubt
over the Hadith literature. The first to raise questions about the
traditional version of the rise of the Hadith literature was Ignaz
Goldziher. He showed that up to three centuries after Muhammed, many
individuals, political parties and sectarian movements within Islam
were manufacturing Traditions that supported their claims and
positions. These Traditions, claiming to be on the authority of
Muhammed, gave each faction legitimacy and authenticity"

* * * Ref "The Phenomenon of Religion: A Thematic Approach" * * *
by Moojan Momen ", 1999 p 325.
ISBN: 1851681612

It is clear that Islam has serious issues with it's texts...

Historically, Muslim scholars have known this...

"...[critics say] that the Koran often copied Biblical stories, and
sometimes did so inaccurately, [...].

Against the charge that Muhammad had copied from previous scriptures
Muslims developed the doctrine of Muhammad's illiteracy, which implied
his complete inability to read the scriptures. The doctrine was based
on the application to Muhammad in the Koran of the adjective ummì.
which was alleged to mean 'illiterate'. The word occurs a number of
times in the Koran in both singular and plural, and apears to have
been taken from the Jews and to mean 'Non-Jewish' or 'Gentile' or
'unscriptured'."

* * "Islamic Fundamentalism and Modernity" by W. Montgomery Watt, p9
ISBN: 0415047145


Satan

In Muslim dogma, this Earth belongs to Satan. Satan wishes to keep
power on this Earth as part of a conflict with God... Satan believes
he can hold some power apart from God, whereas God disagrees. Satan
was given the Earth: Stars, Galaxies and the whole Universe were
created in order to show Satan how insignificant his domain is and how
temporary his "power" is. But by submitting yourself completely to God
(like the animals and disabled people have done) you ignore Satan's
power, and show him he has no power. So, materialism is Satanic.
Materialism is giving temporary power to Satan, anything not of God is
doing the same. This sets the scene for the Islamic religion's stance
on mankind... the word Islam means "submission" to God.

Where does Muhammad and the Koran stand in light of this dualistic
cosmic power struggle? Muhammad, if he altered God's word, was a
materialist and the Koran a materialistic tool... a tool of Satan. Or
at least parts of it. Following the Koran means that in part at least,
you are following Satan. Which means Islam is a self-contradictory
religion.

However if you don't believe Muhammad done this, and you subscribe to
the theory that the Satanic Versus were from Satan, not from Muhammad,
then we have a deeper problem. Because Satan's versus in to the Koran
saved Muhammad's life from the pagans by temporarily inspiring
Muhammad's new religious dogma. What does it mean that Muhammad,
supposedly dependent and submitted purely to God, was saved by Satan?
The entire Islamic religion would only exist because of Satan himself.
So is Islam submission to God... or Satan? If the former, then it is
submission to God only by means of the actions of Satan... Satan truly
had power of control over the creation of the Islamic religion.

Conclusion

It seems that even the "good" of the Koran is based on Satan's
power... Satan chose to let Muhammad live, when faced with the pagans
whom Muhammad could not conquer without Satan's help. Or... if Satan
did not inspire the verses, then Muhammad himself perverted God's law
and therefore his recitation of the Koran is not pure or from God, at
least in part, due to the materialistic (Satanic) Earth... the Earth
that had power over even Muhammad. With verses missing, verses created
by Muhammad according to his needs and not according to truth, and
with an unknown quantity of verses inspired by Satan, the Koran is
more of a mistake than divinely inspired. No wonder The Satanic Verses
is such a painful reminder for Muslims of how their scripture is
indebted to Satan!

"Satan represents the state of affairs recognized by Satanists: That
all good is based on evil: That love and altruism are both selfish and
carnal. Satan represents the evil and uncaring attitude of the dark
force in nature. It represents good being dependant on evil and life
being ultimately defeated by death. Satan represents all of this evil
which in turn creates all good. Without our evil sides we are lost and
Satan represents acceptance of this."

Interesting Link:

(ISIS) The Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Societies
http://www.secularislam.org/research/origins.htm

--------------------


* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
--------------
"If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
--------------
Gurriato
2005-08-06 04:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by GREGG
The Incomplete Koran, and untrustworthy Muhammad
1. The Koran is incomplete
2. Muhammad is not trustworthy
3. Satan
4. Conclusion
Oh, Satán, Rey de los infiernos, poderoso señor a quien el mundo entero
rinde culto en secreto; tú que dominas desde los antros tenebrosos del
infierno hasta la superficie de la tierra y sobre las aguas del mar:
espíritu infernal que todo lo puede, yo te adoro, te invoco, te pido y exijo
después de entregarte mi alma para que de ella dispongas que abandones las
regiones infernales y te presentes aquí dispuesto a concederme lo que te
pido de todo corazon y con el alma condenada te entrego mis tesoros, mi
dicha entera si accedes a mis ruegos. Ven a mí, Rey y Señor, soy tu siervo.

Amén

LA BESTIA IBERA
GREGG
2005-08-06 09:47:58 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:40:47 -0500, "Gurriato" <***@netnitco.net>
wrote:
*************************************************************
* "If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
* it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
*
* http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm
* Testimonials of Those Who Left Islam <-----Read|
* http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm <---|
*************************************************************
Post by Gurriato
Post by GREGG
The Incomplete Koran, and untrustworthy Muhammad
1. The Koran is incomplete
2. Muhammad is not trustworthy
3. Satan
4. Conclusion
Oh, Satán, Rey de los infiernos, poderoso señor a quien el mundo entero
rinde culto en secreto; tú que dominas desde los antros tenebrosos del
espíritu infernal que todo lo puede, yo te adoro, te invoco, te pido y exijo
después de entregarte mi alma para que de ella dispongas que abandones las
regiones infernales y te presentes aquí dispuesto a concederme lo que te
pido de todo corazon y con el alma condenada te entrego mis tesoros, mi
dicha entera si accedes a mis ruegos. Ven a mí, Rey y Señor, soy tu siervo.
Amén
LA BESTIA IBERA
Salut,

Gregg

* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri
2005-08-07 02:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by GREGG
The Incomplete Koran, and untrustworthy Muhammad
1. The Koran is incomplete
2. Muhammad is not trustworthy
3. Satan
4. Conclusion
Incomplete Koran
The Koran was revealed to Muhammad by his death in 632. He transmitted
it to his following who compiled it during the decades after his
death, and varied compilations were completed in the mid 650s. There
were multiple compilations at the time, each using different material
based on the recitations of different caliphs. This variation caused
concern for Muslim scholars at the time. 'We thus face serious
contradictions in our source material regarding two issues: who
collected the Koran, and what it was collected from. In historical
terms, the differences between the rival accounts are not trivial'. In
the tenth century there were between 7 and 14 major different versions
of the Koran available.
* * * Ref: "The Koran: A Very Short Introduction" (Paperback)* * *
ISBN: 0192853449
Upon the compilation of the version we have today there were doubts
and the writing of Muslim scholars expressed it: That some of the text
may have been missed. This was why the compilations were completed in
the first place, because those who Muhammad had instructed the words
of the angel Gabriel to were becoming old. Early Muslim sources state
'[A Koran compiler's] Koran was incomplete, perhaps dramatically so.
'Let none of you say', averred the pious son of Caliph Umar, 'that he
has the whole Koran in his possession. How does he know what the whole
of it is? Much of the Koran has gone', and early compilers also
despaired 'of the sharp divergences in Koranic recitation that had
appeared among the Muslims - just had been the case, he warned, among
the Jews and Christians before them.
The Koran is incomplete... there are rules, guidelines and comments by
God that we no longer possess. The Koran is not compiled in order; the
patchwork canonization period was not capable of being done
chronologically. We do not know what order the texts were supposed to
be in. The missing text may contain really quite important rules and
texts! For example, the important rule "Muslims must cut their beard,
for health and hygiene purposes, once a month or once a week if they
work in the kitchens" may have been missed out! We do not know what is
missing... it really could be anything.
Muhammad not trustworthy
At one point Muhammad and his kin were opposed by the polytheists
around them. In particular, they were oppressed by the followers of 3
pagan gods in Mecca. When defeated, surrounded and under siege,
Muhammad 'seems to have even compromised his monotheism, at first, to
make peace with the Meccans', and suddenly recalled some text that
stated that the three pagan gods were valid intercessors [Q53:19-20],
after all! Lucky for Muhammad he remembered this important fact!
However, when Muhammad had a powerful army and his exiled followers
returned, he recited a further passage... saying that it was an error,
the three pagan gods were not valid! How could this be? There are two
possibilities, the first of which I accept and the second that Islam
has accepted traditionally.
Realistically
... it can be seen that Muhammad was defeated and gave in to pressure
from his enemies. He compromised truth, God's eternal word, for
material benefits: To stay alive. This is the truth of the matter. If
Muhammad can do this here, he could have done it with any part of the
Koran. We do not know which parts of the text were due to Muhammad's
materialism and selfishness and which parts he honestly thought were
the words of Gabriel. Like the Christian scriptures, we are left only
with Human text, not godly text.
The Satanic Versus
However Islamic tradition has it that these versus were not the result
of Muhammad's insincerity. They were versus that were sneaked into the
Koran by Satan. At an emotional moment Satan tricked Muhammad into
thinking that these versus were genuine, and it was only later that
"God annuls what Satan casts" (Q22:52).
* * * Ref: "Why I Am Not a Muslim", by Ibn Warraq (Paperback)* * *
ISBN: 1591020115
"Muslims have always been uncomfortable with this story, unwilling to
believe that the Prophet could have made such a concession to
idolatry. [...] It seems unthinkable that such a story could have been
invented by a devout Muslim such as al-Tabari [...]. Besides, it
explains the fact why those Muslims who had fled to Abyssinia
returned: they had heard that the Meccans had converted. It seems
apparent that this was no sudden lapse on the part of Muhammad, but
had been carefully calculated to win the support of the Meccans. It
also casts serious doubts on Muhammad's sincerity: Even if Satan had
really put the words in his mouth, what faith can we put in a man so
easily led astray by Satan? Why did God let it happen? How do we know
there are no other passages where Muhammad has not been led astray?"
"Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq p102
Which leaves us with some very interesting problems!
Because if Satan can inspire versus we do not know which ones are
valid and which ones are not. For all intents and purposes, the faked
ones were real from the time Satan slipped them in until the time God
annulled them. A period of some years! What further versus is God to
cancel? What other versus were inspired by Satan? We do not know... as
a result the Koran cannot be trusted!
The Koran cannot be trusted!!!
If Muhammad falsified the words of Gabrielle to save his own neck then
we cannot trust Muhammad... yet if it was Satan who inspired the
versus, we cannot trust the Koran! Adding to this the fact that we
know there is text missing from the Koran... what are we left with?
Instead of inspired holy scripture, it sounds more like the insincere
legacy of Muhammad, or the mixed opinions of God and Satan! Some
scripture is not only missing, or wrong, but designed to deceive: In
all cases, the book is not the pure word of God, and is not a suitable
text for Muslims to know the will of God.
Furthermore...even the Hadith texts are broken !!!
Islam does not only rely on canonical texts. The Hadith sayings are
"Modern Western scholarship, however, examining critically the
earliest surviving documents, has cast a much more fundamental doubt
over the Hadith literature. The first to raise questions about the
traditional version of the rise of the Hadith literature was Ignaz
Goldziher. He showed that up to three centuries after Muhammed, many
individuals, political parties and sectarian movements within Islam
were manufacturing Traditions that supported their claims and
positions. These Traditions, claiming to be on the authority of
Muhammed, gave each faction legitimacy and authenticity"
* * * Ref "The Phenomenon of Religion: A Thematic Approach" * * *
by Moojan Momen ", 1999 p 325.
ISBN: 1851681612
It is clear that Islam has serious issues with it's texts...
Historically, Muslim scholars have known this...
"...[critics say] that the Koran often copied Biblical stories, and
sometimes did so inaccurately, [...].
Against the charge that Muhammad had copied from previous scriptures
Muslims developed the doctrine of Muhammad's illiteracy, which implied
his complete inability to read the scriptures. The doctrine was based
on the application to Muhammad in the Koran of the adjective ummì.
which was alleged to mean 'illiterate'. The word occurs a number of
times in the Koran in both singular and plural, and apears to have
been taken from the Jews and to mean 'Non-Jewish' or 'Gentile' or
'unscriptured'."
* * "Islamic Fundamentalism and Modernity" by W. Montgomery Watt, p9
ISBN: 0415047145
Satan
In Muslim dogma, this Earth belongs to Satan. Satan wishes to keep
power on this Earth as part of a conflict with God... Satan believes
he can hold some power apart from God, whereas God disagrees. Satan
was given the Earth: Stars, Galaxies and the whole Universe were
created in order to show Satan how insignificant his domain is and how
temporary his "power" is. But by submitting yourself completely to God
(like the animals and disabled people have done) you ignore Satan's
power, and show him he has no power. So, materialism is Satanic.
Materialism is giving temporary power to Satan, anything not of God is
doing the same. This sets the scene for the Islamic religion's stance
on mankind... the word Islam means "submission" to God.
Where does Muhammad and the Koran stand in light of this dualistic
cosmic power struggle? Muhammad, if he altered God's word, was a
materialist and the Koran a materialistic tool... a tool of Satan. Or
at least parts of it. Following the Koran means that in part at least,
you are following Satan. Which means Islam is a self-contradictory
religion.
However if you don't believe Muhammad done this, and you subscribe to
the theory that the Satanic Versus were from Satan, not from Muhammad,
then we have a deeper problem. Because Satan's versus in to the Koran
saved Muhammad's life from the pagans by temporarily inspiring
Muhammad's new religious dogma. What does it mean that Muhammad,
supposedly dependent and submitted purely to God, was saved by Satan?
The entire Islamic religion would only exist because of Satan himself.
So is Islam submission to God... or Satan? If the former, then it is
submission to God only by means of the actions of Satan... Satan truly
had power of control over the creation of the Islamic religion.
Conclusion
It seems that even the "good" of the Koran is based on Satan's
power... Satan chose to let Muhammad live, when faced with the pagans
whom Muhammad could not conquer without Satan's help. Or... if Satan
did not inspire the verses, then Muhammad himself perverted God's law
and therefore his recitation of the Koran is not pure or from God, at
least in part, due to the materialistic (Satanic) Earth... the Earth
that had power over even Muhammad. With verses missing, verses created
by Muhammad according to his needs and not according to truth, and
with an unknown quantity of verses inspired by Satan, the Koran is
more of a mistake than divinely inspired. No wonder The Satanic Verses
is such a painful reminder for Muslims of how their scripture is
indebted to Satan!
"Satan represents the state of affairs recognized by Satanists: That
all good is based on evil: That love and altruism are both selfish and
carnal. Satan represents the evil and uncaring attitude of the dark
force in nature. It represents good being dependant on evil and life
being ultimately defeated by death. Satan represents all of this evil
which in turn creates all good. Without our evil sides we are lost and
Satan represents acceptance of this."
(ISIS) The Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Societies
http://www.secularislam.org/research/origins.htm
--------------------
* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
--------------
"If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
--------------
GREGG
2005-08-07 03:20:42 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:45:36 +1000, "Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri"
<***@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
*************************************************************
* "If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
* it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
*
* http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm
* Testimonials of Those Who Left Islam <-----Read|
* http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm <---|
*************************************************************

Dear Neil, Ican see that you haven't decided to leave an opinion
or personal belief to share with the arguments herein put forth.
Therefore, I would like to offer you the opportunity to do so if
you so choose. Moreover, I'm ready, willing and able to discuss
with you, and without prejudice, all the possible aspects that
pertains to Islamic Theology, Mysticism and Philosophy in
order to put the aforementioned arguments within context and
intellectual sense. Because your signature identifies you as
Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri, fine interchange could be possible
in the issues of the Persian and Indian legacies to the
formation of "Kalam", or sistematic islamic theology and
the differents aspects of the thoughts of al-Kindi, Abu Bakr
al-Razi and from there on, to the development of the neo-
platonistic formulations of al-Farabi, Ibn- Sina up to the
the Islamic Thought in India, Pakistan, the South-East Asia
passing throught the Persian (Iran) Ishraqui Traditions, and
the the actual problem of Fundamentalisms and Jihad, that
affects us all.

So, this is to say that whatever I've mentioned in my post,
doesn't come up because of senseless "idealism" on my
part, but, in the contrary, it is founded in specific and concrete
analytic and methodological scholarship, summed up to my
experience as a military man, that has served in Iraq.

Yours truly,

Gregg

* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
Post by GREGG
The Incomplete Koran, and untrustworthy Muhammad
1. The Koran is incomplete
2. Muhammad is not trustworthy
3. Satan
4. Conclusion
Incomplete Koran
The Koran was revealed to Muhammad by his death in 632. He transmitted
it to his following who compiled it during the decades after his
death, and varied compilations were completed in the mid 650s. There
were multiple compilations at the time, each using different material
based on the recitations of different caliphs. This variation caused
concern for Muslim scholars at the time. 'We thus face serious
contradictions in our source material regarding two issues: who
collected the Koran, and what it was collected from. In historical
terms, the differences between the rival accounts are not trivial'. In
the tenth century there were between 7 and 14 major different versions
of the Koran available.
* * * Ref: "The Koran: A Very Short Introduction" (Paperback)* * *
ISBN: 0192853449
Upon the compilation of the version we have today there were doubts
and the writing of Muslim scholars expressed it: That some of the text
may have been missed. This was why the compilations were completed in
the first place, because those who Muhammad had instructed the words
of the angel Gabriel to were becoming old. Early Muslim sources state
'[A Koran compiler's] Koran was incomplete, perhaps dramatically so.
'Let none of you say', averred the pious son of Caliph Umar, 'that he
has the whole Koran in his possession. How does he know what the whole
of it is? Much of the Koran has gone', and early compilers also
despaired 'of the sharp divergences in Koranic recitation that had
appeared among the Muslims - just had been the case, he warned, among
the Jews and Christians before them.
The Koran is incomplete... there are rules, guidelines and comments by
God that we no longer possess. The Koran is not compiled in order; the
patchwork canonization period was not capable of being done
chronologically. We do not know what order the texts were supposed to
be in. The missing text may contain really quite important rules and
texts! For example, the important rule "Muslims must cut their beard,
for health and hygiene purposes, once a month or once a week if they
work in the kitchens" may have been missed out! We do not know what is
missing... it really could be anything.
Muhammad not trustworthy
At one point Muhammad and his kin were opposed by the polytheists
around them. In particular, they were oppressed by the followers of 3
pagan gods in Mecca. When defeated, surrounded and under siege,
Muhammad 'seems to have even compromised his monotheism, at first, to
make peace with the Meccans', and suddenly recalled some text that
stated that the three pagan gods were valid intercessors [Q53:19-20],
after all! Lucky for Muhammad he remembered this important fact!
However, when Muhammad had a powerful army and his exiled followers
returned, he recited a further passage... saying that it was an error,
the three pagan gods were not valid! How could this be? There are two
possibilities, the first of which I accept and the second that Islam
has accepted traditionally.
Realistically
... it can be seen that Muhammad was defeated and gave in to pressure
from his enemies. He compromised truth, God's eternal word, for
material benefits: To stay alive. This is the truth of the matter. If
Muhammad can do this here, he could have done it with any part of the
Koran. We do not know which parts of the text were due to Muhammad's
materialism and selfishness and which parts he honestly thought were
the words of Gabriel. Like the Christian scriptures, we are left only
with Human text, not godly text.
The Satanic Versus
However Islamic tradition has it that these versus were not the result
of Muhammad's insincerity. They were versus that were sneaked into the
Koran by Satan. At an emotional moment Satan tricked Muhammad into
thinking that these versus were genuine, and it was only later that
"God annuls what Satan casts" (Q22:52).
* * * Ref: "Why I Am Not a Muslim", by Ibn Warraq (Paperback)* * *
ISBN: 1591020115
"Muslims have always been uncomfortable with this story, unwilling to
believe that the Prophet could have made such a concession to
idolatry. [...] It seems unthinkable that such a story could have been
invented by a devout Muslim such as al-Tabari [...]. Besides, it
explains the fact why those Muslims who had fled to Abyssinia
returned: they had heard that the Meccans had converted. It seems
apparent that this was no sudden lapse on the part of Muhammad, but
had been carefully calculated to win the support of the Meccans. It
also casts serious doubts on Muhammad's sincerity: Even if Satan had
really put the words in his mouth, what faith can we put in a man so
easily led astray by Satan? Why did God let it happen? How do we know
there are no other passages where Muhammad has not been led astray?"
"Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq p102
Which leaves us with some very interesting problems!
Because if Satan can inspire versus we do not know which ones are
valid and which ones are not. For all intents and purposes, the faked
ones were real from the time Satan slipped them in until the time God
annulled them. A period of some years! What further versus is God to
cancel? What other versus were inspired by Satan? We do not know... as
a result the Koran cannot be trusted!
The Koran cannot be trusted!!!
If Muhammad falsified the words of Gabrielle to save his own neck then
we cannot trust Muhammad... yet if it was Satan who inspired the
versus, we cannot trust the Koran! Adding to this the fact that we
know there is text missing from the Koran... what are we left with?
Instead of inspired holy scripture, it sounds more like the insincere
legacy of Muhammad, or the mixed opinions of God and Satan! Some
scripture is not only missing, or wrong, but designed to deceive: In
all cases, the book is not the pure word of God, and is not a suitable
text for Muslims to know the will of God.
Furthermore...even the Hadith texts are broken !!!
Islam does not only rely on canonical texts. The Hadith sayings are
"Modern Western scholarship, however, examining critically the
earliest surviving documents, has cast a much more fundamental doubt
over the Hadith literature. The first to raise questions about the
traditional version of the rise of the Hadith literature was Ignaz
Goldziher. He showed that up to three centuries after Muhammed, many
individuals, political parties and sectarian movements within Islam
were manufacturing Traditions that supported their claims and
positions. These Traditions, claiming to be on the authority of
Muhammed, gave each faction legitimacy and authenticity"
* * * Ref "The Phenomenon of Religion: A Thematic Approach" * * *
by Moojan Momen ", 1999 p 325.
ISBN: 1851681612
It is clear that Islam has serious issues with it's texts...
Historically, Muslim scholars have known this...
"...[critics say] that the Koran often copied Biblical stories, and
sometimes did so inaccurately, [...].
Against the charge that Muhammad had copied from previous scriptures
Muslims developed the doctrine of Muhammad's illiteracy, which implied
his complete inability to read the scriptures. The doctrine was based
on the application to Muhammad in the Koran of the adjective ummì.
which was alleged to mean 'illiterate'. The word occurs a number of
times in the Koran in both singular and plural, and apears to have
been taken from the Jews and to mean 'Non-Jewish' or 'Gentile' or
'unscriptured'."
* * "Islamic Fundamentalism and Modernity" by W. Montgomery Watt, p9
ISBN: 0415047145
Satan
In Muslim dogma, this Earth belongs to Satan. Satan wishes to keep
power on this Earth as part of a conflict with God... Satan believes
he can hold some power apart from God, whereas God disagrees. Satan
was given the Earth: Stars, Galaxies and the whole Universe were
created in order to show Satan how insignificant his domain is and how
temporary his "power" is. But by submitting yourself completely to God
(like the animals and disabled people have done) you ignore Satan's
power, and show him he has no power. So, materialism is Satanic.
Materialism is giving temporary power to Satan, anything not of God is
doing the same. This sets the scene for the Islamic religion's stance
on mankind... the word Islam means "submission" to God.
Where does Muhammad and the Koran stand in light of this dualistic
cosmic power struggle? Muhammad, if he altered God's word, was a
materialist and the Koran a materialistic tool... a tool of Satan. Or
at least parts of it. Following the Koran means that in part at least,
you are following Satan. Which means Islam is a self-contradictory
religion.
However if you don't believe Muhammad done this, and you subscribe to
the theory that the Satanic Versus were from Satan, not from Muhammad,
then we have a deeper problem. Because Satan's versus in to the Koran
saved Muhammad's life from the pagans by temporarily inspiring
Muhammad's new religious dogma. What does it mean that Muhammad,
supposedly dependent and submitted purely to God, was saved by Satan?
The entire Islamic religion would only exist because of Satan himself.
So is Islam submission to God... or Satan? If the former, then it is
submission to God only by means of the actions of Satan... Satan truly
had power of control over the creation of the Islamic religion.
Conclusion
It seems that even the "good" of the Koran is based on Satan's
power... Satan chose to let Muhammad live, when faced with the pagans
whom Muhammad could not conquer without Satan's help. Or... if Satan
did not inspire the verses, then Muhammad himself perverted God's law
and therefore his recitation of the Koran is not pure or from God, at
least in part, due to the materialistic (Satanic) Earth... the Earth
that had power over even Muhammad. With verses missing, verses created
by Muhammad according to his needs and not according to truth, and
with an unknown quantity of verses inspired by Satan, the Koran is
more of a mistake than divinely inspired. No wonder The Satanic Verses
is such a painful reminder for Muslims of how their scripture is
indebted to Satan!
"Satan represents the state of affairs recognized by Satanists: That
all good is based on evil: That love and altruism are both selfish and
carnal. Satan represents the evil and uncaring attitude of the dark
force in nature. It represents good being dependant on evil and life
being ultimately defeated by death. Satan represents all of this evil
which in turn creates all good. Without our evil sides we are lost and
Satan represents acceptance of this."
(ISIS) The Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Societies
http://www.secularislam.org/research/origins.htm
--------------------
* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
--------------
"If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
--------------
* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
Morar
2005-08-07 22:53:29 UTC
Permalink
what is sistematic ?
Gregg my left foot!
Post by GREGG
On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:45:36 +1000, "Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri"
*************************************************************
* "If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
* it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
*
* http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm
* Testimonials of Those Who Left Islam <-----Read|
* http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm <---|
*************************************************************
Dear Neil, Ican see that you haven't decided to leave an opinion
or personal belief to share with the arguments herein put forth.
Therefore, I would like to offer you the opportunity to do so if
you so choose. Moreover, I'm ready, willing and able to discuss
with you, and without prejudice, all the possible aspects that
pertains to Islamic Theology, Mysticism and Philosophy in
order to put the aforementioned arguments within context and
intellectual sense. Because your signature identifies you as
Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri, fine interchange could be possible
in the issues of the Persian and Indian legacies to the
formation of "Kalam", or sistematic islamic theology and
the differents aspects of the thoughts of al-Kindi, Abu Bakr
al-Razi and from there on, to the development of the neo-
platonistic formulations of al-Farabi, Ibn- Sina up to the
the Islamic Thought in India, Pakistan, the South-East Asia
passing throught the Persian (Iran) Ishraqui Traditions, and
the the actual problem of Fundamentalisms and Jihad, that
affects us all.
So, this is to say that whatever I've mentioned in my post,
doesn't come up because of senseless "idealism" on my
part, but, in the contrary, it is founded in specific and concrete
analytic and methodological scholarship, summed up to my
experience as a military man, that has served in Iraq.
Yours truly,
Gregg
* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
Post by GREGG
The Incomplete Koran, and untrustworthy Muhammad
1. The Koran is incomplete
2. Muhammad is not trustworthy
3. Satan
4. Conclusion
Incomplete Koran
The Koran was revealed to Muhammad by his death in 632. He transmitted
it to his following who compiled it during the decades after his
death, and varied compilations were completed in the mid 650s. There
were multiple compilations at the time, each using different material
based on the recitations of different caliphs. This variation caused
concern for Muslim scholars at the time. 'We thus face serious
contradictions in our source material regarding two issues: who
collected the Koran, and what it was collected from. In historical
terms, the differences between the rival accounts are not trivial'. In
the tenth century there were between 7 and 14 major different versions
of the Koran available.
* * * Ref: "The Koran: A Very Short Introduction" (Paperback)* * *
ISBN: 0192853449
Upon the compilation of the version we have today there were doubts
and the writing of Muslim scholars expressed it: That some of the text
may have been missed. This was why the compilations were completed in
the first place, because those who Muhammad had instructed the words
of the angel Gabriel to were becoming old. Early Muslim sources state
'[A Koran compiler's] Koran was incomplete, perhaps dramatically so.
'Let none of you say', averred the pious son of Caliph Umar, 'that he
has the whole Koran in his possession. How does he know what the whole
of it is? Much of the Koran has gone', and early compilers also
despaired 'of the sharp divergences in Koranic recitation that had
appeared among the Muslims - just had been the case, he warned, among
the Jews and Christians before them.
The Koran is incomplete... there are rules, guidelines and comments by
God that we no longer possess. The Koran is not compiled in order; the
patchwork canonization period was not capable of being done
chronologically. We do not know what order the texts were supposed to
be in. The missing text may contain really quite important rules and
texts! For example, the important rule "Muslims must cut their beard,
for health and hygiene purposes, once a month or once a week if they
work in the kitchens" may have been missed out! We do not know what is
missing... it really could be anything.
Muhammad not trustworthy
At one point Muhammad and his kin were opposed by the polytheists
around them. In particular, they were oppressed by the followers of 3
pagan gods in Mecca. When defeated, surrounded and under siege,
Muhammad 'seems to have even compromised his monotheism, at first, to
make peace with the Meccans', and suddenly recalled some text that
stated that the three pagan gods were valid intercessors [Q53:19-20],
after all! Lucky for Muhammad he remembered this important fact!
However, when Muhammad had a powerful army and his exiled followers
returned, he recited a further passage... saying that it was an error,
the three pagan gods were not valid! How could this be? There are two
possibilities, the first of which I accept and the second that Islam
has accepted traditionally.
Realistically
... it can be seen that Muhammad was defeated and gave in to pressure
from his enemies. He compromised truth, God's eternal word, for
material benefits: To stay alive. This is the truth of the matter. If
Muhammad can do this here, he could have done it with any part of the
Koran. We do not know which parts of the text were due to Muhammad's
materialism and selfishness and which parts he honestly thought were
the words of Gabriel. Like the Christian scriptures, we are left only
with Human text, not godly text.
The Satanic Versus
However Islamic tradition has it that these versus were not the result
of Muhammad's insincerity. They were versus that were sneaked into the
Koran by Satan. At an emotional moment Satan tricked Muhammad into
thinking that these versus were genuine, and it was only later that
"God annuls what Satan casts" (Q22:52).
* * * Ref: "Why I Am Not a Muslim", by Ibn Warraq (Paperback)* * *
ISBN: 1591020115
"Muslims have always been uncomfortable with this story, unwilling to
believe that the Prophet could have made such a concession to
idolatry. [...] It seems unthinkable that such a story could have been
invented by a devout Muslim such as al-Tabari [...]. Besides, it
explains the fact why those Muslims who had fled to Abyssinia
returned: they had heard that the Meccans had converted. It seems
apparent that this was no sudden lapse on the part of Muhammad, but
had been carefully calculated to win the support of the Meccans. It
also casts serious doubts on Muhammad's sincerity: Even if Satan had
really put the words in his mouth, what faith can we put in a man so
easily led astray by Satan? Why did God let it happen? How do we know
there are no other passages where Muhammad has not been led astray?"
"Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq p102
Which leaves us with some very interesting problems!
Because if Satan can inspire versus we do not know which ones are
valid and which ones are not. For all intents and purposes, the faked
ones were real from the time Satan slipped them in until the time God
annulled them. A period of some years! What further versus is God to
cancel? What other versus were inspired by Satan? We do not know... as
a result the Koran cannot be trusted!
The Koran cannot be trusted!!!
If Muhammad falsified the words of Gabrielle to save his own neck then
we cannot trust Muhammad... yet if it was Satan who inspired the
versus, we cannot trust the Koran! Adding to this the fact that we
know there is text missing from the Koran... what are we left with?
Instead of inspired holy scripture, it sounds more like the insincere
legacy of Muhammad, or the mixed opinions of God and Satan! Some
scripture is not only missing, or wrong, but designed to deceive: In
all cases, the book is not the pure word of God, and is not a suitable
text for Muslims to know the will of God.
Furthermore...even the Hadith texts are broken !!!
Islam does not only rely on canonical texts. The Hadith sayings are
"Modern Western scholarship, however, examining critically the
earliest surviving documents, has cast a much more fundamental doubt
over the Hadith literature. The first to raise questions about the
traditional version of the rise of the Hadith literature was Ignaz
Goldziher. He showed that up to three centuries after Muhammed, many
individuals, political parties and sectarian movements within Islam
were manufacturing Traditions that supported their claims and
positions. These Traditions, claiming to be on the authority of
Muhammed, gave each faction legitimacy and authenticity"
* * * Ref "The Phenomenon of Religion: A Thematic Approach" * * *
by Moojan Momen ", 1999 p 325.
ISBN: 1851681612
It is clear that Islam has serious issues with it's texts...
Historically, Muslim scholars have known this...
"...[critics say] that the Koran often copied Biblical stories, and
sometimes did so inaccurately, [...].
Against the charge that Muhammad had copied from previous scriptures
Muslims developed the doctrine of Muhammad's illiteracy, which implied
his complete inability to read the scriptures. The doctrine was based
on the application to Muhammad in the Koran of the adjective ummì.
which was alleged to mean 'illiterate'. The word occurs a number of
times in the Koran in both singular and plural, and apears to have
been taken from the Jews and to mean 'Non-Jewish' or 'Gentile' or
'unscriptured'."
* * "Islamic Fundamentalism and Modernity" by W. Montgomery Watt, p9
ISBN: 0415047145
Satan
In Muslim dogma, this Earth belongs to Satan. Satan wishes to keep
power on this Earth as part of a conflict with God... Satan believes
he can hold some power apart from God, whereas God disagrees. Satan
was given the Earth: Stars, Galaxies and the whole Universe were
created in order to show Satan how insignificant his domain is and how
temporary his "power" is. But by submitting yourself completely to God
(like the animals and disabled people have done) you ignore Satan's
power, and show him he has no power. So, materialism is Satanic.
Materialism is giving temporary power to Satan, anything not of God is
doing the same. This sets the scene for the Islamic religion's stance
on mankind... the word Islam means "submission" to God.
Where does Muhammad and the Koran stand in light of this dualistic
cosmic power struggle? Muhammad, if he altered God's word, was a
materialist and the Koran a materialistic tool... a tool of Satan. Or
at least parts of it. Following the Koran means that in part at least,
you are following Satan. Which means Islam is a self-contradictory
religion.
However if you don't believe Muhammad done this, and you subscribe to
the theory that the Satanic Versus were from Satan, not from Muhammad,
then we have a deeper problem. Because Satan's versus in to the Koran
saved Muhammad's life from the pagans by temporarily inspiring
Muhammad's new religious dogma. What does it mean that Muhammad,
supposedly dependent and submitted purely to God, was saved by Satan?
The entire Islamic religion would only exist because of Satan himself.
So is Islam submission to God... or Satan? If the former, then it is
submission to God only by means of the actions of Satan... Satan truly
had power of control over the creation of the Islamic religion.
Conclusion
It seems that even the "good" of the Koran is based on Satan's
power... Satan chose to let Muhammad live, when faced with the pagans
whom Muhammad could not conquer without Satan's help. Or... if Satan
did not inspire the verses, then Muhammad himself perverted God's law
and therefore his recitation of the Koran is not pure or from God, at
least in part, due to the materialistic (Satanic) Earth... the Earth
that had power over even Muhammad. With verses missing, verses created
by Muhammad according to his needs and not according to truth, and
with an unknown quantity of verses inspired by Satan, the Koran is
more of a mistake than divinely inspired. No wonder The Satanic Verses
is such a painful reminder for Muslims of how their scripture is
indebted to Satan!
"Satan represents the state of affairs recognized by Satanists: That
all good is based on evil: That love and altruism are both selfish and
carnal. Satan represents the evil and uncaring attitude of the dark
force in nature. It represents good being dependant on evil and life
being ultimately defeated by death. Satan represents all of this evil
which in turn creates all good. Without our evil sides we are lost and
Satan represents acceptance of this."
(ISIS) The Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Societies
http://www.secularislam.org/research/origins.htm
--------------------
* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
--------------
"If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
--------------
* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri
2005-08-09 09:15:41 UTC
Permalink
I have no liking for Islam and the founder of the cult namely Mohammad who
has spread evil, lies and oppression. At best I can say the Koran is the
best book to teach decite, warfare, oppression and invasion in all its
forms.

Mohammad was a man who hoodwinked many people to carry out evil acts in the
name of some "god" called Allah. Please feel free to tell us more. I am sure
Indian in the news group will be interested.
Post by GREGG
On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:45:36 +1000, "Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri"
*************************************************************
* "If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
* it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
*
* http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm
* Testimonials of Those Who Left Islam <-----Read|
* http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm <---|
*************************************************************
Neuromante_
2005-08-09 17:05:38 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:15:41 +1000, "Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri"
Post by Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri
I have no liking for Islam and the founder of the cult namely Mohammad who
has spread evil, lies and oppression. At best I can say the Koran is the
best book to teach decite, warfare, oppression and invasion in all its
forms.
Mohammad was a man who hoodwinked many people to carry out evil acts in the
name of some "god" called Allah. Please feel free to tell us more. I am sure
Indian in the news group will be interested.
OK, Dear Neil... I'll do it. And, agree with you in your comments.

Gregg
Post by Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri
Post by GREGG
On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:45:36 +1000, "Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri"
*************************************************************
* "If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
* it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
*
* http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm
* Testimonials of Those Who Left Islam <-----Read|
* http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm <---|
*************************************************************
* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
--------------
"If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
--------------
ElGaucho
2005-08-09 17:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri
I have no liking for Islam and the founder of the cult namely Mohammad who
has spread evil, lies and oppression. At best I can say the Koran is the
best book to teach decite, warfare, oppression and invasion in all its
forms.
Mohammad was a man who hoodwinked many people to carry out evil acts in the
name of some "god" called Allah. Please feel free to tell us more. I am sure
Indian in the news group will be interested.
Salga de'ai, don. No joda.

Oscar
Post by Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri
Post by GREGG
On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:45:36 +1000, "Neil_Hindu_Sikh_Kashmiri"
*************************************************************
* "If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
* it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
*
* http://www.secularislam.org/Default.htm
* Testimonials of Those Who Left Islam <-----Read|
* http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm <---|
*************************************************************
Dick69
2005-08-07 03:39:26 UTC
Permalink
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism

[...]

Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.

[...]
Nusrat Rizvi
2005-08-07 12:26:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.

Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Gurriato
2005-08-07 15:39:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.

BEN BATUTA
Nusrat Rizvi
2005-08-07 16:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
BEN BATUTA
On an English forum you write in Spanish and expect people to
understand you.
Let me guess, you must be a devout Muslim.

Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
GREGG
2005-08-07 17:21:35 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 12:54:08 -0400, Nusrat Rizvi
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
BEN BATUTA
On an English forum you write in Spanish and expect people to
understand you.
He is calling islamist to arms, a calling for them to destroy Israel,
the land, the cities, women, all of it. That's the context of above
posting in Spanish.
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Let me guess, you must be a devout Muslim.
He may be a Muladi (an Ibero-Arab) as during the time of the
Arab conquest over Iberia (Spain), or as the arabs called it,
al-Andalus.
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Gregg


* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
Gurriato
2005-08-07 17:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
BEN BATUTA
On an English forum you write in Spanish and expect people to
understand you.
Let me guess, you must be a devout Muslim.
Very much so.

Desde los primeros balbuceos de nuestro idioma castellano el Islam es
siempre el espejo en el que de algún modo nos miramos los españoles. Incluso
la famosa historia del Ingenioso Hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha fue
escrita por Cide Hamete Benengeli, historiador arábigo.

La bárbara civilización anglosajona nos odia tanto a los hispanos como a los
musulmanes, que tenemos que sufrir la antipatía y prejucios de los putos
guiris avariciosos de una y otra orilla del charco, y por eso nos
consideramos hermanados.

BEN BATUTA
GREGG
2005-08-07 18:20:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
BEN BATUTA
On an English forum you write in Spanish and expect people to
understand you.
Let me guess, you must be a devout Muslim.
Very much so.
Desde los primeros balbuceos de nuestro idioma castellano el Islam es
siempre el espejo en el que de algún modo nos miramos los españoles. Incluso
la famosa historia del Ingenioso Hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha fue
escrita por Cide Hamete Benengeli, historiador arábigo.
What in hell are you talking about Gurrias!?!?!? What you've said,
that Don Quijote was written by Cide Hamete Benengali, and arab
historian is non-sense!!! The use of C.H. Benengali by Cervantes
is what is called a "muletilla" in Spanish Literature. A story's
framming device use to encapsulate the story, insulating the
author of any possible socio-political complications according
to the age when the story is being written. Cervantes used a FICTIONAL
REFERENDUM, when he said that "Cide Hamete Benengali" was
the one whor wrote the piece, and he translated it into Castellano.
But Cide Hamete Benengali NEVER existed! It was a FICTIONAL
tool in order to evade " socio-political objective thruth" in the
context of his story.

C'mon!!!

Listen... this "fictional framing" of reference... is what makes
"Lolita" for example, a "pie de errata" when it was written
by Nabokov in his prologue etc., etc., etc.... about the
origins of it.
Post by Gurriato
La bárbara civilización anglosajona nos odia tanto a los hispanos como a los
musulmanes, que tenemos que sufrir la antipatía y prejucios de los putos
guiris avariciosos de una y otra orilla del charco, y por eso nos
consideramos hermanados.
Bullshit!
Post by Gurriato
BEN BATUTA
Salut,

Gregg


* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
Gurriato
2005-08-08 04:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by GREGG
What in hell are you talking about Gurrias!?!?!? What you've said,
that Don Quijote was written by Cide Hamete Benengali, and arab
historian is non-sense!!! The use of C.H. Benengali by Cervantes
is what is called a "muletilla" in Spanish Literature. A story's
framming device use to encapsulate the story, insulating the
author of any possible socio-political complications according
to the age when the story is being written. Cervantes used a FICTIONAL
REFERENDUM,
Se dice "referent", merluzo.

Un referendum es un procedimiento jurídico por el que se someten al voto
popular leyes o actos administrativos cuya ratificación por el pueblo se
propone.

when he said that "Cide Hamete Benengali" was
Post by GREGG
the one whor wrote the piece, and he translated it into Castellano.
But Cide Hamete Benengali NEVER existed! It was a FICTIONAL
tool in order to evade " socio-political objective thruth" in the
context of his story.
C'mon!!!
El puesto central que ocupa el Islam en la escenografía mental hispana no
puede escapar a la atención de ningun observador, incluso superficial, de
nuestra literatura. El factor geográfico de vecindad desempeña lógicamente
un papel primordial.

Al cesar la amenaza militar de los sarracenos los castellanos se sintieron
atraidos por aquella exótica civilización, aquel lujo oriental en el
vestuario, aquella espléndida ornamentación de los edificios, aquella
extraña manera de vida, aquel modo de cabalgar, de armarse, de combatir, de
fumar porros, de cazar con halcón...

Los moros son unos tíos elegantes y no portan los genes nerds y
anal-retentivos de los hebreos. La religión musulmana legitimiza el placer
sexual y, en lugar de amargar la vida a los creyentes amenazándolos con las
penas del infierno, enfatiza las delicias que nos están destinadas en un
Cielo poblado de bellas y retozonas huríes.

Por eso yo siempre echo los caliqueños de cara a la Meca y al correrme
voceo: ¡Allahu Akbar!
Post by GREGG
Listen... this "fictional framing" of reference... is what makes
"Lolita" for example, a "pie de errata" when it was written
by Nabokov in his prologue etc., etc., etc.... about the
origins of it.
Post by Gurriato
La bárbara civilización anglosajona nos odia tanto a los hispanos como a los
musulmanes, que tenemos que sufrir la antipatía y prejucios de los putos
guiris avariciosos de una y otra orilla del charco, y por eso nos
consideramos hermanados.
Bullshit!
Puedes preguntar por cualquier lado. A ver lo que te dice el sudakamen. Los
gringos no son tremendamente populares del Rio Grand p'abajo.

ALI BEN IMETE
ARIEL BOLUDOVSKY
2005-08-08 09:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
El puesto central que ocupa el Islam en la escenografía mental hispana
no puede escapar a la atención de ningun observador, incluso
superficial, de nuestra literatura. El factor geográfico de vecindad
desempeña lógicamente un papel primordial.
Esastamente. Por eso mismo Marruecos ocupa siempre el primer puesto en
los concurso de popularidad en Espanya. Cuando un espanyol ve a un moro,
es que le faltan minutos para invitarle a un aperitivo (hallal, por
supuesto), oiga.
Post by Gurriato
Al cesar la amenaza militar de los sarracenos los castellanos se
sintieron atraidos por aquella exótica civilización, aquel lujo
oriental en el vestuario, aquella espléndida ornamentación de los
edificios, aquella extraña manera de vida, aquel modo de cabalgar, de
armarse, de combatir, de fumar porros, de cazar con halcón...
Esastamente. Por eso mismo el santo patron de Espanya es Santiago
Matahebreos.
Post by Gurriato
Los moros son unos tíos elegantes y no portan los genes nerds y
anal-retentivos de los hebreos. La religión musulmana legitimiza el
placer sexual y, en lugar de amargar la vida a los creyentes
amenazándolos con las penas del infierno, enfatiza las delicias que
nos están destinadas en un Cielo poblado de bellas y retozonas
huríes.
Te aconsejo que dejes de mirar Al-Jazeera 24/7 y te des con un canto en
los dientes. Tal vez asi comprendas la realidad: los moros no han hecho
otra cosa que darnos por saco a los espanyoles: Guadalete, 8 siglos de
ocupacion (riete tu de Irak), Annual, para acabar con la masacre de
Madrid.

Que carajos tenemos nosotros a ganar entablando amistad con una
civilizacion retrograda, caduca y periclitada? Al cubo de la basura con
los mitos de la Espanya musulmana.

MOROS GO HOME!!!
Post by Gurriato
Por eso yo siempre echo los caliqueños de cara a la Meca y al correrme
voceo: ¡Allahu Akbar!
Y tambien sacas a la parienta a pasear con burka? Cuidado no se vaya a
tropezar. Las aceras son muy traicioneras.


BOLUDOVSKY
--
------------------------
ARIK TOV L'YEHUDIM
------------------------
Neuromante_
2005-08-09 03:51:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Post by GREGG
What in hell are you talking about Gurrias!?!?!? What you've said,
that Don Quijote was written by Cide Hamete Benengali, and arab
historian is non-sense!!! The use of C.H. Benengali by Cervantes
is what is called a "muletilla" in Spanish Literature. A story's
framming device use to encapsulate the story, insulating the
author of any possible socio-political complications according
to the age when the story is being written. Cervantes used a FICTIONAL
REFERENDUM,
Se dice "referent", merluzo.
Si, es verdad... fue mi error, trate de expresarme con REFERENTUM,
pero escribi REFERENDUM. No fue un error tipografico, fue mi error.
Post by Gurriato
Un referendum es un procedimiento jurídico por el que se someten al voto
popular leyes o actos administrativos cuya ratificación por el pueblo se
propone.
That's right!
Post by Gurriato
when he said that "Cide Hamete Benengali" was
Post by GREGG
the one whor wrote the piece, and he translated it into Castellano.
But Cide Hamete Benengali NEVER existed! It was a FICTIONAL
tool in order to evade " socio-political objective thruth" in the
context of his story.
C'mon!!!
El puesto central que ocupa el Islam en la escenografía mental hispana no
puede escapar a la atención de ningun observador, incluso superficial, de
nuestra literatura. El factor geográfico de vecindad desempeña lógicamente
un papel primordial.
Yeah, OK..., si duda que el 'trauma' fue mayor..., pero es hora que la
Cultura Central de Espana ( hablo de Cultura Central debido a los
diversos aspectos regionales, en fin...), que dicha cultura deje el
'trauma' morisco y se conforme en cuanto a sus verdaderos valores
occidentales. O lo que signfica, una Cultura Moderna.
Post by Gurriato
Al cesar la amenaza militar de los sarracenos los castellanos se sintieron
atraidos por aquella exótica civilización, aquel lujo oriental en el
vestuario, aquella espléndida ornamentación de los edificios, aquella
extraña manera de vida, aquel modo de cabalgar, de armarse, de combatir, de
fumar porros, de cazar con halcón...
Yeah, bullshit... pero en fin, sarna con gusto no pica.
Post by Gurriato
Los moros son unos tíos elegantes y no portan los genes nerds y
anal-retentivos de los hebreos.
Pero sin la "herencia hebrea", Islam no existiria... ni como
pensamiento siquiera.
Post by Gurriato
La religión musulmana
Bruto! No existe la "religion" musulmana joder!
Post by Gurriato
legitimiza el placer
sexual y, en lugar de amargar la vida a los creyentes amenazándolos con las
penas del infierno, enfatiza las delicias que nos están destinadas en un
Cielo poblado de bellas y retozonas huríes.
El Islam es un condicionamiento mental enfermizo.... enfermizo
y retrogado.
Post by Gurriato
Por eso yo siempre echo los caliqueños de cara a la Meca y al correrme
voceo: ¡Allahu Akbar!
Hazlo en Iraq, Iran, Siria y hasta en Arabia Saudita..., eso si, deja
dicho donde quieres que enviemos tu cabeza.
Post by Gurriato
Post by GREGG
Listen... this "fictional framing" of reference... is what makes
"Lolita" for example, a "pie de errata" when it was written
by Nabokov in his prologue etc., etc., etc.... about the
origins of it.
Post by Gurriato
La bárbara civilización anglosajona nos odia tanto a los hispanos como a los
musulmanes, >que tenemos que sufrir la antipatía y prejucios de los putos
guiris avariciosos de una y otra orilla del charco, y por eso nos
consideramos hermanados.
Bullshit!
Puedes preguntar por cualquier lado. A ver lo que te dice el sudakamen. Los
gringos no son tremendamente populares del Rio Grand p'abajo.
Pues algo deseable deberemos tener los gringos.... ya que desde el Rio
Grande p'arriba es que nadan los del Rio Grande p'abajo.
Post by Gurriato
ALI BEN IMETE
Gregg


* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
--------------
"If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
--------------
Dick69
2005-08-10 02:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by GREGG
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos
y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
BEN BATUTA
On an English forum you write in Spanish and expect people to
understand you.
Let me guess, you must be a devout Muslim.
Very much so.
Desde los primeros balbuceos de nuestro idioma castellano el Islam es
siempre el espejo en el que de algún modo nos miramos los españoles. Incluso
la famosa historia del Ingenioso Hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha fue
escrita por Cide Hamete Benengeli, historiador arábigo.
What in hell are you talking about Gurrias!?!?!? What you've said,
that Don Quijote was written by Cide Hamete Benengali, and arab
historian is non-sense!!! The use of C.H. Benengali by Cervantes
is what is called a "muletilla" in Spanish Literature. A story's
framming device use to encapsulate the story, insulating the
author of any possible socio-political complications according
to the age when the story is being written. Cervantes used a FICTIONAL
REFERENDUM, when he said that "Cide Hamete Benengali" was
the one whor wrote the piece, and he translated it into Castellano.
But Cide Hamete Benengali NEVER existed! It was a FICTIONAL
tool in order to evade " socio-political objective thruth" in the
context of his story.
What a funny guy Gurriato is. Next thing you know, he'll claim Shakespeare
didn't write his works either.

Oh Gurriato wherefore art thou Gurriato?

Dick
--
http://dick69.cjb.net
Post by GREGG
C'mon!!!
Listen... this "fictional framing" of reference... is what makes
"Lolita" for example, a "pie de errata" when it was written
by Nabokov in his prologue etc., etc., etc.... about the
origins of it.
Post by Gurriato
La bárbara civilización anglosajona nos odia tanto a los hispanos como a los
musulmanes, que tenemos que sufrir la antipatía y prejucios de los putos
guiris avariciosos de una y otra orilla del charco, y por eso nos
consideramos hermanados.
Bullshit!
Post by Gurriato
BEN BATUTA
Salut,
Gregg
* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
Gurriato
2005-08-10 05:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick69
Post by GREGG
Post by Gurriato
Desde los primeros balbuceos de nuestro idioma castellano el Islam es
siempre el espejo en el que de algún modo nos miramos los españoles. Incluso
la famosa historia del Ingenioso Hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha fue
escrita por Cide Hamete Benengeli, historiador arábigo.
What in hell are you talking about Gurrias!?!?!? What you've said,
that Don Quijote was written by Cide Hamete Benengali, and arab
historian is non-sense!!! The use of C.H. Benengali by Cervantes
is what is called a "muletilla" in Spanish Literature. A story's
framming device use to encapsulate the story, insulating the
author of any possible socio-political complications according
to the age when the story is being written. Cervantes used a FICTIONAL
REFERENDUM, when he said that "Cide Hamete Benengali" was
the one whor wrote the piece, and he translated it into Castellano.
But Cide Hamete Benengali NEVER existed! It was a FICTIONAL
tool in order to evade " socio-political objective thruth" in the
context of his story.
What a funny guy Gurriato is. Next thing you know, he'll claim Shakespeare
didn't write his works either.
Oh Gurriato wherefore art thou Gurriato?
No olvidemos el cautiverio argelino de don Miguel. Allí aprendió el árabe y
obtuvo el manuscrito del Quijote del escritór e historiador arábigo Cide
Hamete Bebengeli. Para no buscarse líos con el Santo Oficio don Miguel se
inventó la historia de que la obra mayor de nuestra literatura la sacó de un
original descubierto entre unos cartapacios y papeles viejos comprados en
la calle de la Alcaná de Toledo por el precio de medio real a un mozo que
los iba a vender a un sedero, y que luego un morisco aljamiado lo tradujo
por dos arrobas de pasas y dos fanegas de trigo.

La incidencia del tema muslímico en la narrativa de Cervantes ha suscitado,
como es lógico, una copiosísima bibliografía, y los cervantistas
profesionales o aficionados se han esforzado en explicar , con mayor o menor
fortuna, la fascinación de don Miguel con dichos temas. Don Miguel, a pesar
de haber sido cautivo en el norte de Africa bajo los berberiscos de la zona,
supo mantener la ecuanimidad y describió el problema morisco, el
enfrentamiento religioso-cultural de las dos comunidades hispanas, desde
una gran variedad de perspectivas, a menudo contradictorias.

Cervantes, como han advertido sus estudiosos no se erige nunca en poseedor
de LA VERDAD, en eso es casi posmoderno; actúa al revés, como un diseminador
de verdades tanto cuanto permite al Otro -al morisco- exponer un punto de
vista opuesto al comúnmente acatado por el público destinatario. Su
experiencia de cautivo, el trato íntimo de los musulmanes, le confirieron la
posibilidad de abordar la materia desde una atalaya privilegiada,
simultáneamente literaria y vital. Bajo ese concepto, su obra es única en
"Occidente": como el caso del Arcipreste, sería inexplicable , y en
cualquier caso diferente, sin el influjo fecundador del Islam. Don Miguel
era un hombre católico, en el sentido de universal. No lo comparemos con un
guiri provinciano como Chéspir, que miraba el mundo a través del canuto de
sus prejuicios y desde el estrecho horizonte del campanario pueblerino.

ALI BEN IMETE
Fortinbras
2005-08-10 20:17:15 UTC
Permalink
Grandes verdades estas que nos dice Gurriato.

saludos cordiales

Fortinbras
Post by Gurriato
No olvidemos el cautiverio argelino de don Miguel. Allí aprendió el árabe y
obtuvo el manuscrito del Quijote del escritór e historiador arábigo Cide
Hamete Bebengeli. Para no buscarse líos con el Santo Oficio don Miguel se
inventó la historia de que la obra mayor de nuestra literatura la sacó de un
original descubierto entre unos cartapacios y papeles viejos comprados en
la calle de la Alcaná de Toledo por el precio de medio real a un mozo que
los iba a vender a un sedero, y que luego un morisco aljamiado lo tradujo
por dos arrobas de pasas y dos fanegas de trigo.
La incidencia del tema muslímico en la narrativa de Cervantes ha suscitado,
como es lógico, una copiosísima bibliografía, y los cervantistas
profesionales o aficionados se han esforzado en explicar , con mayor o menor
fortuna, la fascinación de don Miguel con dichos temas. Don Miguel, a pesar
de haber sido cautivo en el norte de Africa bajo los berberiscos de la zona,
supo mantener la ecuanimidad y describió el problema morisco, el
enfrentamiento religioso-cultural de las dos comunidades hispanas, desde
una gran variedad de perspectivas, a menudo contradictorias.
Cervantes, como han advertido sus estudiosos no se erige nunca en poseedor
de LA VERDAD, en eso es casi posmoderno; actúa al revés, como un diseminador
de verdades tanto cuanto permite al Otro -al morisco- exponer un punto de
vista opuesto al comúnmente acatado por el público destinatario. Su
experiencia de cautivo, el trato íntimo de los musulmanes, le confirieron la
posibilidad de abordar la materia desde una atalaya privilegiada,
simultáneamente literaria y vital. Bajo ese concepto, su obra es única en
"Occidente": como el caso del Arcipreste, sería inexplicable , y en
cualquier caso diferente, sin el influjo fecundador del Islam. Don Miguel
era un hombre católico, en el sentido de universal. No lo comparemos con un
guiri provinciano como Chéspir, que miraba el mundo a través del canuto de
sus prejuicios y desde el estrecho horizonte del campanario pueblerino.
ALI BEN IMETE
PINKO
2005-08-07 18:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Desde los primeros balbuceos de nuestro idioma castellano el Islam es
siempre el espejo en el que de algún modo nos miramos los españoles. Incluso
la famosa historia del Ingenioso Hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha fue
escrita por Cide Hamete Benengeli, historiador arábigo.
El Quijote has always existed. Thoroughout history there have been many
translations, starting with Cervantes and ending with Pierre Menard.
Everybody knows that.

PINKO
Begoluna
2005-08-07 23:05:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Let me guess, you must be a devout Muslim.
Very much so.
Gurri-ano: ¡Gregg te va a poner una de sus new military-issued pigskin
boots en tu arse!! :-)

Jews in Green
http://www.jewsingreen.com/home/weblog/comments/pigskin_boots/
--
@}-->------
BegOmOOn
------<--{@
Dick69
2005-08-10 02:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
BEN BATUTA
On an English forum you write in Spanish and expect people to
understand you.
Let me guess, you must be a devout Muslim.
Very much so.
Desde los primeros balbuceos de nuestro idioma castellano el Islam es
siempre el espejo en el que de algún modo nos miramos los españoles. Incluso
http://www.verdeislam.com/vi_03/VI_307.htm
Post by Gurriato
la famosa historia del Ingenioso Hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha fue
escrita por Cide Hamete Benengeli, historiador arábigo.
La bárbara civilización anglosajona nos odia tanto a los hispanos como a
los musulmanes, que tenemos que sufrir la antipatía y prejucios de los
putos guiris avariciosos de una y otra orilla del charco, y por eso nos
consideramos hermanados.
Speak for yourself.

Dick
--
http://dick69.cjb.net
Dick69
2005-08-10 02:10:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
BEN BATUTA
On an English forum you write in Spanish and expect people to
understand you.
1. Babel Fish is your friend:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

2. Do you understand the concept of crossposting? Look at the header and you
will se the following groups:

soc.culture.argentina,alt.culture.argentina,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,
soc.culture.british,soc.culture.europe,alt.usage.spanish,soc.culture.spain,soc.culture.french
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Let me guess, you must be a devout Muslim.
Let me guess, any one you don't like must be a Muslin. Or better yet, any
one who is a Muslim you don't like.

Dick
--
http://dick69.cjb.net
GREGG
2005-08-07 17:11:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
BEN BATUTA
Oye muladí Gurrias, de que taifa provienes de al-Andalus???

Gregg

* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
Juan Moreira
2005-08-07 17:44:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by GREGG
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
BEN BATUTA
Oye muladí Gurrias, de que taifa provienes de al-Andalus???
Gregg
En una de sus encarnaciones de la época de oro del Califato de Córdoba (la
lejana y sóla) fué el eunuco favorito de uno de los Abdelrajmánes.
Juan
GREGG
2005-08-07 18:40:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Juan Moreira
Post by GREGG
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
BEN BATUTA
Oye muladí Gurrias, de que taifa provienes de al-Andalus???
Gregg
En una de sus encarnaciones de la época de oro del Califato de Córdoba
Se debio de haber subido al Cerro de Ascochinga del Colifato de
Cordoba y sin turbante, ya que parece que se insolo el muladi Gurrias.
No solo llama a las armas a la turcada a eliminar todo Israel, sino
que hasta sale con que Cervantes no escribio el Don Quijote.
Post by Juan Moreira
(la lejana y sóla) fué el eunuco favorito de uno de los Abdelrajmánes.
Dicen que lo usaban para afilar los alfanjes en su orto...
Post by Juan Moreira
Juan
Gregg

* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
====================================================
Mike Bloomberg for New York City Mayor
http://www.mikebloomberg.com/
====================================================
Juan Moreira
2005-08-08 09:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by GREGG
Post by Juan Moreira
(la lejana y sóla) fué el eunuco favorito de uno de los Abdelrajmánes.
Dicen que lo usaban para afilar los alfanjes en su orto...
Post by Juan Moreira
Juan
Gregg
Puede ser. Los famosos sables damasquinos eran templados en el cuerpo de una
virgen.
Juan
Neuromante_
2005-08-09 03:39:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Juan Moreira
Post by GREGG
Post by Juan Moreira
(la lejana y sóla) fué el eunuco favorito de uno de los Abdelrajmánes.
Dicen que lo usaban para afilar los alfanjes en su orto...
Post by Juan Moreira
Juan
Gregg
Puede ser. Los famosos sables damasquinos eran templados en el cuerpo de una
virgen.
Juan
Pero que fea costumbre la de estos moros!!! Ni que los hubiese parido
un perra a estos hijos de puta! Que manera de tratar mal a las
mujeres! Quelospario!

Gregg

* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
--------------
"If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
--------------
Gurriato
2005-08-09 04:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neuromante_
Pero que fea costumbre la de estos moros!!! Ni que los hubiese parido
un perra a estos hijos de puta! Que manera de tratar mal a las
mujeres! Quelospario!
Quizá es algo que hayan heredado de los hebreos. El Islam no es sino una
versión refinada de la religión judía. Los pueblos semitas ( grupo al que
pertenecen tanto los árabes como los hebreos) siempre han tenido muy
sometidas a las mujeres, cosa que a mí, personalmente, no me parece nada
mal. Los indoeuropeos han dejado la rienda demasiado suelta a la parienta
y luego ocurre lo que ocurre.

Los hebreos consideran a las mujeres como seres inferiores.
Tradicionalmente se otorga una educación judía mucho más intensiva a los
varones que a las hembras. Según la tradición las obligaciones religiosas
de la mujer se centran en el hogar y la familia, y está exenta de observar
muchos de los preceptos (mitzvot) que un hombre está obligado a cumplir.

La mujer no tiene que colocarse telifin (filacterias), cubrirse con el talit
(manto de oraciones) asistir a los servicios regulares d ela sinagoga, etc,
porque esto podría entrar en conflicto con sus obligaciones hogareñas. Por
razones similares, la educación de las niñas no incluye el estudio de la
Bibila y el Talmud y se limita a enseñar los aspectos prácticos de la vida
judía.

En la Edad Media las niñas judias se desposaban a los doce años de edad. En
la Rusia de fines del siglo XIX y comienzos del siglo XX los matrimonios de
niños eran comunes, porque así los varones no tenían que servir en el
ejército.

Una sinagoga, par ser realmente ortodoxa, no debe tener asientos mezclados
para los hombres y mujeres. Se debe reservar una sección separada
(normalmente una galería elevada para las mujeres) de manera que hombres y
mujeres no puedan verse durante la oración. La galería de las chorbas se
llama Ezrat Nashim.

EL COJO MANTECAS (CRISTIANO VIEJO)
ElGaucho
2005-08-09 04:53:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Post by Neuromante_
Pero que fea costumbre la de estos moros!!! Ni que los hubiese parido
un perra a estos hijos de puta! Que manera de tratar mal a las
mujeres! Quelospario!
Quizá es algo que hayan heredado de los hebreos. El Islam no es sino una
versión refinada de la religión judía. Los pueblos semitas ( grupo al que
pertenecen tanto los árabes como los hebreos) siempre han tenido muy
sometidas a las mujeres, cosa que a mí, personalmente, no me parece nada
mal. Los indoeuropeos han dejado la rienda demasiado suelta a la parienta
y luego ocurre lo que ocurre.
Los hebreos consideran a las mujeres como seres inferiores.
Tradicionalmente se otorga una educación judía mucho más intensiva a los
varones que a las hembras. Según la tradición las obligaciones religiosas
de la mujer se centran en el hogar y la familia, y está exenta de
observar
Post by Gurriato
muchos de los preceptos (mitzvot) que un hombre está obligado a cumplir.
EL COJO MANTECAS (CRISTIANO VIEJO)
Y si me permitís, agrego que no es menester de nadie criticar la manera de
tratar a las mujeres de ninguna cultura. Si hay musulmanas con
resentimientos, las hay también que apoyan esas costumbres, tanto como las
judías.

Claro está, que el Cristianismo occidental es solamente para mandarse la
parte en los domingos, y para dar shows en la tele, porque ¿qué religión
siguen? Las mujeres apoyan ese liberalismo religioso solamente para dar
dolores de cabezas a los hombres...que no las saben controlar como es
debido.

Oscar
Juan Moreira
2005-08-09 08:15:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Post by Gurriato
Post by Neuromante_
Pero que fea costumbre la de estos moros!!! Ni que los hubiese parido
un perra a estos hijos de puta! Que manera de tratar mal a las
mujeres! Quelospario!
Quizá es algo que hayan heredado de los hebreos. El Islam no es sino una
versión refinada de la religión judía. Los pueblos semitas ( grupo al que
pertenecen tanto los árabes como los hebreos) siempre han tenido muy
sometidas a las mujeres, cosa que a mí, personalmente, no me parece nada
mal. Los indoeuropeos han dejado la rienda demasiado suelta a la parienta
y luego ocurre lo que ocurre.
Los hebreos consideran a las mujeres como seres inferiores.
Tradicionalmente se otorga una educación judía mucho más intensiva a los
varones que a las hembras. Según la tradición las obligaciones
religiosas
Post by Gurriato
de la mujer se centran en el hogar y la familia, y está exenta de
observar
Post by Gurriato
muchos de los preceptos (mitzvot) que un hombre está obligado a cumplir.
EL COJO MANTECAS (CRISTIANO VIEJO)
Y si me permitís, agrego que no es menester de nadie criticar la manera de
tratar a las mujeres de ninguna cultura. Si hay musulmanas con
resentimientos, las hay también que apoyan esas costumbres, tanto como las
judías.
Claro está, que el Cristianismo occidental es solamente para mandarse la
parte en los domingos, y para dar shows en la tele, porque ¿qué religión
siguen? Las mujeres apoyan ese liberalismo religioso solamente para dar
dolores de cabezas a los hombres...que no las saben controlar como es
debido.
Oscar
Ah! Pero cuando las quemaban a docenas por brujas, entonces sí que sabían!
La única forma que tenían las pobres mujeres sólas de salvarse era meterse
en un convento y dejarse por los curas y los frailes.
Juan
ElGaucho
2005-08-09 17:14:56 UTC
Permalink
"Juan Moreira"
Post by Juan Moreira
Post by ElGaucho
Y si me permitís, agrego que no es menester de nadie criticar la manera de
tratar a las mujeres de ninguna cultura. Si hay musulmanas con
resentimientos, las hay también que apoyan esas costumbres, tanto como las
judías.
Claro está, que el Cristianismo occidental es solamente para mandarse la
parte en los domingos, y para dar shows en la tele, porque ¿qué religión
siguen? Las mujeres apoyan ese liberalismo religioso solamente para dar
dolores de cabezas a los hombres...que no las saben controlar como es
debido.
Oscar
Ah! Pero cuando las quemaban a docenas por brujas, entonces sí que sabían!
La única forma que tenían las pobres mujeres sólas de salvarse era meterse
en un convento y dejarse por los curas y los frailes.
Juan
Ah! Qué tiempos aquellos...25 abriles que no...Ah, no..esa era otra...Pero
igual, buenos tiempos esos para confirmar que los machos eran machos de
verdad.

Oscar.
luca
2005-08-09 20:58:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by ElGaucho
"Juan Moreira"
Post by Juan Moreira
Post by ElGaucho
Y si me permitís, agrego que no es menester de nadie criticar la manera
de
Post by Juan Moreira
Post by ElGaucho
tratar a las mujeres de ninguna cultura. Si hay musulmanas con
resentimientos, las hay también que apoyan esas costumbres, tanto como
las
Post by Juan Moreira
Post by ElGaucho
judías.
Claro está, que el Cristianismo occidental es solamente para mandarse la
parte en los domingos, y para dar shows en la tele, porque ¿qué religión
siguen? Las mujeres apoyan ese liberalismo religioso solamente para dar
dolores de cabezas a los hombres...que no las saben controlar como es
debido.
Oscar
Ah! Pero cuando las quemaban a docenas por brujas, entonces sí que sabían!
La única forma que tenían las pobres mujeres sólas de salvarse era meterse
en un convento y dejarse por los curas y los frailes.
Juan
Ah! Qué tiempos aquellos...25 abriles que no...Ah, no..esa era otra...Pero
igual, buenos tiempos esos para confirmar que los machos eran machos de
verdad.
Oscar.
y en que las monjas servian para algo :-D
ElGaucho
2005-08-09 21:36:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by ElGaucho
"Juan Moreira"
Ah! Qué tiempos aquellos...25 abriles que no...Ah, no..esa era otra...Pero
igual, buenos tiempos esos para confirmar que los machos eran machos de
verdad.
Oscar.
y en que las monjas servian para algo :-D
***********
Si...muy buena conclusión.

Y si rezan las mozas
pa' que se note,
la que desvíe la línea,
¡sabrá e' chicote!

ElGaucho Oriental
piratazul9
2005-08-10 17:56:06 UTC
Permalink
Gauchito, me temo que estas totalmente fuera de perspectiva.

A las mujeres no hay que controlarlas.

Hay que descontrolarlas.

Y comeran de tu mano ... desnuditas y carinosas.

Salud y curvas, Paco
Post by Gurriato
Post by Gurriato
Post by Neuromante_
Pero que fea costumbre la de estos moros!!! Ni que los hubiese parido
un perra a estos hijos de puta! Que manera de tratar mal a las
mujeres! Quelospario!
Quizá es algo que hayan heredado de los hebreos. El Islam no es sino una
versión refinada de la religión judía. Los pueblos semitas ( grupo al que
pertenecen tanto los árabes como los hebreos) siempre han tenido muy
sometidas a las mujeres, cosa que a mí, personalmente, no me parece nada
mal. Los indoeuropeos han dejado la rienda demasiado suelta a la parienta
y luego ocurre lo que ocurre.
Los hebreos consideran a las mujeres como seres inferiores.
Tradicionalmente se otorga una educación judía mucho más intensiva a los
varones que a las hembras. Según la tradición las obligaciones
religiosas
Post by Gurriato
de la mujer se centran en el hogar y la familia, y está exenta de
observar
Post by Gurriato
muchos de los preceptos (mitzvot) que un hombre está obligado a cumplir.
EL COJO MANTECAS (CRISTIANO VIEJO)
Y si me permitís, agrego que no es menester de nadie criticar la manera de
tratar a las mujeres de ninguna cultura. Si hay musulmanas con
resentimientos, las hay también que apoyan esas costumbres, tanto como las
judías.
Claro está, que el Cristianismo occidental es solamente para mandarse la
parte en los domingos, y para dar shows en la tele, porque ¿qué religión
siguen? Las mujeres apoyan ese liberalismo religioso solamente para dar
dolores de cabezas a los hombres...que no las saben controlar como es
debido.
Oscar
Neuromante_
2005-08-09 17:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Post by Neuromante_
Pero que fea costumbre la de estos moros!!! Ni que los hubiese parido
un perra a estos hijos de puta! Que manera de tratar mal a las
mujeres! Quelospario!
Quizá es algo que hayan heredado de los hebreos. El Islam no es sino una
versión refinada de la religión judía.
Nada de eso, querido Gurrias, nada de eso...., nosotros, los Judios,
heredamos el Judaismo por nuestras MADRES, los Ismaelitas (aka
Moros), heredan su putamadrismo (lease, Islamismo), por sus
PADRES.

BIG, BIG, DIFFERENCE my "pollerudo" darling...

Gregg


* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
--------------
"If it is true that most Muslims are not Islamist,
it is no less true that all Islamists are Muslims."
--------------
Gurriato
2005-08-10 04:23:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neuromante_
Post by Gurriato
Post by Neuromante_
Pero que fea costumbre la de estos moros!!! Ni que los hubiese parido
un perra a estos hijos de puta! Que manera de tratar mal a las
mujeres! Quelospario!
Quizá es algo que hayan heredado de los hebreos. El Islam no es sino una
versión refinada de la religión judía.
Nada de eso, querido Gurrias, nada de eso...., nosotros, los Judios,
heredamos el Judaismo por nuestras MADRES, los Ismaelitas (aka
Moros), heredan su putamadrismo (lease, Islamismo), por sus
PADRES.
BIG, BIG, DIFFERENCE my "pollerudo" darling...
Pas du tout.

Agar era la verdadera esposa de Abraham, que no Sara, e Ismael su hijo
favorito. Fue a Ismael, y no a Isaac, a quien Abraham ofreció en
sacrificio; el escenario de la frustrada inmolación no tuvo lugar en el
monte Moriá en Palestina, sino en el monte Arafat, cerca de La Meca.

ALI BEN IMETE
GREGG
2005-08-10 22:36:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Post by Neuromante_
Post by Gurriato
Post by Neuromante_
Pero que fea costumbre la de estos moros!!! Ni que los hubiese parido
un perra a estos hijos de puta! Que manera de tratar mal a las
mujeres! Quelospario!
Quizá es algo que hayan heredado de los hebreos. El Islam no es sino una
versión refinada de la religión judía.
Nada de eso, querido Gurrias, nada de eso...., nosotros, los Judios,
heredamos el Judaismo por nuestras MADRES, los Ismaelitas (aka
Moros), heredan su putamadrismo (lease, Islamismo), por sus
PADRES.
BIG, BIG, DIFFERENCE my "pollerudo" darling...
Pas du tout.
Ah,ah!...Ce n'est pas du tout, mais beaucoup des la plupart,
Gurrias, mon cher ami qui aime s' habiller avec des jupes...
ce n'est pas du tout...
Post by Gurriato
Agar era la verdadera esposa de Abraham, que no Sara, e Ismael su hijo
favorito. Fue a Ismael, y no a Isaac, a quien Abraham ofreció en
sacrificio; el escenario de la frustrada inmolación no tuvo lugar en el
monte Moriá en Palestina, sino en el monte Arafat, cerca de La Meca.
Pure merde! C'est une autre paire de manches! Il n'y prait plus, dans
les documents canoniques o ces periodes. Vous parlez trop de non
sens, mais encore, il est par reflexion avec votre croyance et
prejudices. A ceci, il n'est rien que je peux faire...
Post by Gurriato
ALI BEN IMETE
Salut,

Gregg

* Over the Rainbow: http://tinyurl.com/ct8gb (IZ)
* http://www.geocities.com/airborne_col/America.html
================================================
Mike Bloomberg for New York City Mayor
http://www.mikebloomberg.com/
================================================
PINKO
2005-08-07 18:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
1. Muy bueno lo de la "silenciosa y enigmatica violencia".
2. Por mas virgenes que sean, estas seguro que te queres aguantar a una mina
judia? Yo lo pensaria dos veces.
3. Que demonios es un "oder"?

PINKO
Gurriato
2005-08-08 03:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by PINKO
Post by Gurriato
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
1. Muy bueno lo de la "silenciosa y enigmatica violencia".
¿Bueno en sentido literario, o bueno el practicarla?
Post by PINKO
2. Por mas virgenes que sean, estas seguro que te queres aguantar a una mina
judia? Yo lo pensaria dos veces.
¿Una JAP? ¿Pensármelo dos veces? Me lo pensaría hasta setenta veces siete.
Para violar a una de esas tipas hay que ser un beduino que se haya pasado
dos años en el desierto sin ver mujer. Creo que se liman las uñas mientras
te las estás violando.
Y si su padre no les ha pagado un "nose job" de jovencita, forget it!

Por lo que contabas me parece que tú anduviste casado con una JAP, seguro
que te exprimió como un limón. ¿Que tal las facturas de la tarjeta de
crédito en Bloomingdale? La suegra judia debió ser demasié p'al body. Y no
escarmientas, bergante.
Post by PINKO
3. Que demonios es un "oder"?
Se puede escribir con pe o con jota, a elegir.

BEN BATUTA
ElGaucho
2005-08-07 19:16:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/0
3/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Post by Dick69
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
BEN BATUTA
Oh, it sounds like fun! How can I join up your cause? Forget them things,
the "ideals"; I can barely wait to get me one of them girls like Liz
Taylor...Yam, Yam..Even with your rare, difficult to 'stand words -I am just
a camel driver, y'know- I'm all afire!

This is the time and we are the chosen ones....Let's do it!

Mohamad Ali-al Gaucho Oscar.
Dick69
2005-08-10 02:28:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick69
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/0
3/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Post by Dick69
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and
our
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
Post by Dick69
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
BEN BATUTA
Oh, it sounds like fun! How can I join up your cause? Forget them things,
the "ideals"; I can barely wait to get me one of them girls like Liz
Taylor...Yam, Yam..Even with your rare, difficult to 'stand words -I am just
a camel driver, y'know- I'm all afire!
This is the time and we are the chosen ones....Let's do it!
Mohamad Ali-al Gaucho Oscar.
Allah Akbar! Let's go forth brothers and kill the infidels!

Usama bin Puta
***
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8853000/site/newsweek/
A bin Laden lo dejaron escapar.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050806/wl_mideast_afp/britainattackssaudi_050806232547
Los sauditas alertaron a los británicos sobre un posible ataque

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1545404,00.html
Star Chamber, cortes secretas para terroristas

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/050808/3/25bm0.html
El terrorismo se difunde desde Irak

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4135400.stm
4 de los terroristas del 11-s fueron identificados un año antes como
posiblemente vinculados a Al-Qaeda.
Max Muir
2005-08-12 23:37:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Connecticut
Despertad, guerreros del Islam, beduinos del desierto, Israel se os ofrece
como una fruta madura, entrad en él a saco: sus campos, sus ciudades, sus
tesoros, sus vírgenes os pertenecen: destruid el ruinoso bastión de su
personalidad, barred los escombros de sus sinagogas igual que el Primer
Templo fue destruido por los babilonios. Hay que afilar los cuchillos y
disponer de los dientes: que vuestra sierpe sediciosa se yerga en toda su
longitud y, cetro soberbio y real, ejerza el oder tirano con silenciosa y
enigmática violencia.
BEN BATUTA
According to Alta Vista...

"You wake up, soldiers of the Islam, Bedouins of the desert, Israel is
offered to you like a mature fruit, you enter him coat: their fields,
their cities, their treasures, their virgins belong to you: you destroy
the ruinous bastion of its personality, you sweep the rubbish of its
synagogues just as the First Temple it was destroyed by the
Babylonians. It is necessary to sharpen the knives and to have the
teeth: that sedititious yours sierpe yerga in all its length and,
magnificent and real sceptre, exerts quiet tyrannous oder with and
enigmatic violence. HORSERADISH TREE BATON"
Topaz
2005-08-14 02:03:05 UTC
Permalink
" . .for you suffered like things of your own countrymen as they did
from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and
drove us out and displease God, and oppose all men. . . But God's
wrath has come upon them at last. (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16)
Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
instead of giving heed to Jewish myths or to commands of men who
reject the truth. (Titus1:13-14)

In fact the greatest Jewish myth today is that somehow the Jewish
people who accept the anti-Christian hatred of Judaism are still
Chosen of God.

In fact, for the writing such as these, the New Testament has long
been hated and called anti-Semitic by the Jews. In Israel, there have
been public burnings of the New Testament. Zionists publicly and
ceremoniously burned hundreds of copies of the New Testament in
Jerusalem on March 23, 1980. They were destroyed under the auspices of
Yad Le'akhim, a Jewish religious organization subsidized by the
Israeli Ministry of Religions.

In Israeli government-financed schools it is illegal to even quote
from the very much hated New Testament. Is it ironic to think that
some of the Christian money that goes to Israel has helped finance the
burning of the New Testament! There are Jewish groups all over the
world that are working to actually change the New Testament and take
out the verses that offend them. Jewish pressure has already caused
changes in the famous Passion Play. Biblical versus that Jews don't
like were taken out.

The term Judeo-Christian, a term never used in the United States until
after the Second World War, (again coinciding with the rise of Jewish
power) is a completely ridiculous term, for Judaism and Christianity
are polar opposites in principle and belief. Christianity celebrates,
forgiveness and love, Judaism honors vengeance and hate. In fact,
Judaism is viciously hateful toward Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary.
In fact the Talmud claims that the Jewish priests not the Romans
crucified Christ.

Here are some quotes from the chief Jewish religious text, the Talmud.

* Balaam [Jesus] fornicated with his jackass. (Sanhedrin 105a-b)
* Balaam [Jesus] is raised from the dead and being punished in
boiling hot semen. Those who mock the words of the Jewish sages and
sin against Israel are boiled in hot excrement. (57a Gittin)
* She who was the descendant of princes and governors [The Virgin
Mary] played the harlot with a carpenter (Sanhedrin 106a)
* [Jesus] was lowered into a pit of dung up to his armpits. Then a
hard cloth was placed within a soft one, wound round his neck, and the
two ends pulled in opposite directions until he was dead. (Sanhedrin
52b) Also, it says they gave him four different executions in
Sanhedrin 106a.

Masters of deceit, some Jews will claim that Balaam was not a derisive
name Jews used for Jesus. But, in The Jewish Encyclopedia, under the
heading "Balaam," it clearly says quote "…the pseudonym 'Balaam' given
to Jesus in Sanhedrin 106b and Gittin 57a."

It is ironic that the Muslim faith is presented as anti-Christian, yet
Moslems honor Christ and the Virgin Mary. For instance, although the
Koran views Christ as a great prophet rather than savior, it says Mary
was a virtuous woman and God had fathered her son, Jesus. It also says
that God resurrected Jesus from the dead. The Koran, like the New
Testament, suggests that the Jews had a covenant with God that they
broke and that God then offered a new covenant to all believers. It
condemns the Talmud's assertion that Mary was a whore and disputes the
Talmud's boast that Jews themselves murdered Jesus Christ rather than
the Romans at their behest. Here a couple of quotes from the Qur'an.

They (Jews) have incurred divine displeasure: in that they broke the
covenant… And little is it they believe.
That they rejected faith and they uttered against Mary a grave false
charge…
That they said (in boast) "we killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary,
the messenger of Allah- but they killed him not, nor crucified him.
But so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are
full of doubts…
(Sura 4 AlNisa 153- 159)

It is in the interest of Jewish Supremacists to paint the Moslems as
vicious enemies of Christ, but the Qur'an states a quite mild view of
Christians as compared to Jews.

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews
and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou
find those who say "we are Christians": Because amongst these are men
devoted to learning and men who renounced the world, and they are not
arrogant. (Sura 5 Al-Ma'idah "5-82)

It is in the interest of Jewish Supremacists to paint the Moslems as
vicious enemies of Christ, but the Qur'an states a quite mild view of
Christians as compared to Jews. If you would like a more in depth look
into the extreme anti-Christian attitudes of Judaism please read my
book entitled Jewish Supremacism and you can go this website to My
Awakening and read the chapter on Christianity, Judaism and Race.
There is a wealth of information in these books and invite you check
out my sources for yourself. Shocking as they may be, you will find
them meticulously accurate and authentic.

Because of Jewish supremacy in the press, we simply don't get the real
view of the world. We get the view the Jewish supremacists want us to
see. It is unbelievable that they even altered some of the most basic
tenants of the Christian faith, and they have too many Christians
listening to the Jewish interpretations of the New Testament rather
than its own clear words on the subject.

As a Christian it pains me that so many who profess to be Christians
have supported the horrible crimes inflicted on the Palestinians, many
of whom are our fellow Christians. These so called Christians reject
the love and compassion of Christ in the same ways they Jews have for
2000 years rejected his message of peace and reconciliation. They have
even allowed the Jewish supremacist, Christ-haters to twist the words
of our own Holy Bible because they know that that the Jewish
broadcasting moguls would pull the plug if they dared to tell the real
Christian view of Jewish supremacism.

How long will American Christians continue to support the Anti-Christ
of Jewish Supremacism?

It reminds of the one of the most often repeated phrases in the New
Testament: "fear of the Jews," as expressed in John 7:13

Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him (John 7:13)

Recently it was revealed that Billy Graham in conversations with
President Nixon said that the Jewish stranglehold on the American
media was destroying our country. Must their stranglehold destroy the
basic tenants of our Christian faith as well? Even Graham and Nixon
dared not speak openly about the Jewish stranglehold on our country.

It is simply amazing to me that some fundamentalist Christians have
been fooled into aligning themselves with anti-Christian Jews, the
very same forces that stand against everything that Christians stand
for in America.

The same pro-Israel, Jewish supremacist mass media and Hollywood
establishment that Graham railed against with Nixon in private, is the
same one that continually attacks and ridicules Christianity and
Christian ethics. The same Jewish media that supports Israel supports
abortion, something that almost all fundamentalist Christians oppose.
The Jewish supremacists must have a good laugh as they get the money
and support from people who they ridicule and debase in their mass
media. That same Jewish media supports radical feminism and blatant
homosexuality. That same Jewish media that supports unlimited Third
World immigration in America, supports the Jews Only Israeli policy.
When will the blind Christians wake up?

Is it Moslems in the American media who are destroying Christian
ethics? As Billy Graham said it is the Jewish stranglehold on media
that is doing that. The truth is that devout Moslems have the same
opinion toward abortion, homosexuality, feminism and other moral
issues as the fundamentalist Christians, but in the ultimate con job,
the Jews have got the Christians busily defending them and hating the
Moslems. They have even got Christians supporting the Jewish murder
and ethnic cleansing of their fellow Christian Palestinians.

Although I respect all religions and the right of every man or woman
to believe or not believe according to their own intellect and
conscience, I am a Christian.

I am a Christian who defends my faith and my fellow Christians. It is
not Moslems who have led the fight to remove even Christmas carols
from American schools. I have not and will not sell my soul to the
Jews for their thirty pieces of silver. To do so I must oppose the
evil of Israel. I will not let quote "fear of the Jews" stop me from
telling and spreading the truth. The same evil that is destroying the
Palestinian nation is destroying the American nation. The time has
come to stand up for the truth. Again, the whole truth and nothing but
the truth!

Won't you join me?

Christians, Moslems, anyone of any faith who loves truth and justice,
together we can change the world.

This has been David Duke …sharing my most recent thoughts."


www.spearhead-uk.com http://www.natvan.com
http://www.thebirdman.org http://www.RealNews247.com
National Alliance Terrorism
2005-08-14 18:40:33 UTC
Permalink
David Duke, former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, gets upset when
you mention his past when questioning his speeches and writings. He
wants the world to believe that the messenger is irrelevant and words
are the only component to human communication. He constantly screams
that he can't be an anti-semite, because of the few jews he likes and
supports that are usefull to his cause. These are the few mentally ill
Jews that promote nazi propoganda. Duke calls every other Jew, a Jewish
Supremacist (hysterically hypocritical). In virtually everything he
writes and speaks, he claims Jews and others hate and oppose him
because he tells the truth (quite psychopathic). However Duke's
writings and speeches are filled with hundreds of lies, half-truths,
distortions, tenuous links, very selective reporting and personal
opinion. This has been the art of Nazi propoganda since the 1930s. For
example: David Duke's books are filled with fake quotes from the
Talmud. Fake quotes which originated with Joseph Goebbels of Nazi
Germany. Duke even claims that the Talmud is the holiest book in
Judaism. (another blatent lie from Nazi Germany). What Duke doesn't
mention is that the Talmud is a collection of ancient commentary from
rabbis with a wide range of contradicting opinions regarding religious
law. A collection of books that mainly only Orthodox Jews read and
study.
Anyone interested in understanding Duke's lies and fake quotes
regarding the Talmud can follow these links.
http://www.jewish.com/askarabbi/askarabbi/askr2316.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/
http://talmud.faithweb.com/
David Duke turned down atleast two public debates on claims and
conclusions in his book Jewish Supremacism. (One with Dennis Prager and
the other with Daniel Pipes) Why? Because he knows he is a pathological
liar and more importantly he knows that his audience is overwhelmingly
psychopathic racists and bigots (some in denial) who are searching for
justification for their hatred of Jews.

Learn more about David Duke and his Nazi roots from the World's most
respected online encyclopedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke

Some interesting quotes from David Duke:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Duke

"White people don't need a law against rape, but if you fill this room
up with your normal black bucks, you would,
because niggers are basically primitive animals."
"Of course you know the miracle of AIDS, we all do. It's the only
disease that turns fruits into vegetables."

Dick69
2005-08-09 03:18:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
What do you mean by "you guys" ? Are you inferring I am a Muslim?

Este señor no sabe que yo soy lamparístico.
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
And I suppose your Jesus is better? Hey, my myth is better than your myth,
it's not, it's too, it's not, it's too, etc.

Dick
--
http://dick69.cjb.net
Gurriato
2005-08-09 03:39:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick69
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
What do you mean by "you guys" ? Are you inferring I am a Muslim?
Este señor no sabe que yo soy lamparístico.
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
And I suppose your Jesus is better? Hey, my myth is better than your myth,
it's not, it's too, it's not, it's too, etc.
Eso se debe a que nosotros somos occidentales y los moros no lo son.

Son orientales los paises en donde cualquier guerra, cualquier genocidio son
asuntos puramente locales, y occidentales aquellos en los que la menor
efusión de sangre es una tragedia de alcance universal.

LA BESTIA
Dick69
2005-08-10 02:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gurriato
Post by Dick69
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
What do you mean by "you guys" ? Are you inferring I am a Muslim?
Este señor no sabe que yo soy lamparístico.
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
And I suppose your Jesus is better? Hey, my myth is better than your
myth, it's not, it's too, it's not, it's too, etc.
Eso se debe a que nosotros somos occidentales y los moros no lo son.
Son orientales los paises en donde cualquier guerra, cualquier genocidio
son asuntos puramente locales, y occidentales aquellos en los que la
menor efusión de sangre es una tragedia de alcance universal.
Che, y el Uruguay no es una República Oriental también?

Dick
--
http://dick69.cjb.net
ElGaucho
2005-08-10 04:18:12 UTC
Permalink
"Dick69"
Post by Dick69
Post by Gurriato
Eso se debe a que nosotros somos occidentales y los moros no lo son.
Son orientales los paises en donde cualquier guerra, cualquier genocidio
son asuntos puramente locales, y occidentales aquellos en los que la
menor efusión de sangre es una tragedia de alcance universal.
Che, y el Uruguay no es una República Oriental también?
Dick
Sí, y los nacidos ahí somos "orientales", para los argentinos, que son los
occidentales.. Mire qué lío geográfico nos trae el río Uruguay...porque los
"otros orientales" son los chinos y japoneses, pero no son orientales como
nosotros, los verdaderos..

¿Un oriental, más oriental que un uruguayo? Imposible e Impensable..

Saludos,
Oscar

.
Gurriato
2005-08-10 04:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by ElGaucho
¿Un oriental, más oriental que un uruguayo? Imposible e Impensable..
Pues vaya usté a trabajar de palanganelo al Honolable Balio Oliental de
Balcelona.

GULIATO
Gurriato
2005-08-10 04:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick69
Post by Gurriato
Post by Dick69
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:39:26 -0400, "Dick69"
Post by Dick69
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/08/03/foe_isnt_islam_its_binladenism/?page=full
Foe isn't Islam, it's Binladenism
[...]
Ironically, it is us Muslims who have the greatest vested interest in
eradicating terrorism. We need to do this to salvage our religion and our
self-respect.
[...]
If you guys can believe claims from a guy like Mohammed that he has
What do you mean by "you guys" ? Are you inferring I am a Muslim?
Este señor no sabe que yo soy lamparístico.
Post by Nusrat Rizvi
been chosen by an all knowing God to lead you than both you and your
miserable religion need help.
And I suppose your Jesus is better? Hey, my myth is better than your
myth, it's not, it's too, it's not, it's too, etc.
Eso se debe a que nosotros somos occidentales y los moros no lo son.
Son orientales los paises en donde cualquier guerra, cualquier genocidio
son asuntos puramente locales, y occidentales aquellos en los que la
menor efusión de sangre es una tragedia de alcance universal.
Che, y el Uruguay no es una República Oriental también?
Sí, pero no está habitado por seres humanos.

ALI BEN IMETE
ElGaucho
2005-08-10 09:00:44 UTC
Permalink
"Gurriato" >>> And I suppose your Jesus is better? Hey, my myth is better
than your
Post by Gurriato
Post by Dick69
Post by Gurriato
Post by Dick69
myth, it's not, it's too, it's not, it's too, etc.
Eso se debe a que nosotros somos occidentales y los moros no lo son.
Son orientales los paises en donde cualquier guerra, cualquier genocidio
son asuntos puramente locales, y occidentales aquellos en los que la
menor efusión de sangre es una tragedia de alcance universal.
Che, y el Uruguay no es una República Oriental también?
Sí, pero no está habitado por seres humanos.
ALI BEN IMETE
Pues sí, tienes razón. Los uruguayos somos tan gloriosos que a menudo la
gente nos confunde con sus dioses. Craso error, por supuesto, nosotros somos
los verdaderos..

¡A mis pies, lacayo, rinde tu pleitesía!

Chicote
Gurriato
2005-08-10 14:00:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by ElGaucho
"Gurriato" >>> And I suppose your Jesus is better? Hey, my myth is better
than your
Post by Gurriato
Post by Dick69
Post by Gurriato
Post by Dick69
myth, it's not, it's too, it's not, it's too, etc.
Eso se debe a que nosotros somos occidentales y los moros no lo son.
Son orientales los paises en donde cualquier guerra, cualquier
genocidio
Post by Gurriato
Post by Dick69
Post by Gurriato
son asuntos puramente locales, y occidentales aquellos en los que la
menor efusión de sangre es una tragedia de alcance universal.
Che, y el Uruguay no es una República Oriental también?
Sí, pero no está habitado por seres humanos.
ALI BEN IMETE
Pues sí, tienes razón. Los uruguayos somos tan gloriosos que a menudo la
gente nos confunde con sus dioses. Craso error, por supuesto, nosotros somos
los verdaderos..
¡A mis pies, lacayo, rinde tu pleitesía!
Chicote
Aaron: Dios de los pedos en la mitología extremeña. Se le representa como un
vejete chabacano y desdentado con las solapas plagaditas de caspa. Su
símbolo es el pulpo Cinepimasta, así llamado porque se entretiene pasando
los tentáculos por los tetámenes propicios.

LE MARQUIS DE LA PATTE NOIRE
Dick69
2005-08-09 03:20:23 UTC
Permalink
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/05/AR2005080501483.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4789994

http://muslimwakeup.com/
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